[Apt-Rpm] Apt-rpm on embedded Linux, is it impossible?
Quan phongvan
phongvan84 at gmail.com
Wed Jan 16 01:29:28 PST 2008
Dear jean-seb,
How fast does you reply to me seems make me so happy, I really appreciate
it.
In addition, maybe can I ask you a private question about my confusing
problem ?
I just wonder how does you organize your network system including embedded
Linux system and HP ProLiant servers ?
Because I must take care of a well-organized plan that can help me to do
administration works on our network system such as:
1. System full-upgrading or RPM packages updating (even entire firmware for
my embedded Linux system).
2. Managing local repository servers for my Linux boxes.
Because you are such a experience developer, so I hope that you can give
some advices, thank you in advance.
Best regards,
Nguyen Anh Quan.
On Jan 16, 2008 3:02 PM, js <jsh at interlug-fr.org> wrote:
> Quan phongvan wrote:
> > Dear jean-seb,
> > If you don't mind, I really need your help for my problems:
> > 1. I wonder about how apt-rpm deal with RPM packages dependency list,
> > can you show me some detailed advice on the way how apt-rpm resolve
> > these dependencies ?
>
> You can see the source code: It do the job (ok, rpm help too).
> It's not important to me to know how apt works (which algorithm it
> uses); the important thing is to do it quickly and without errors :)
>
>
> > 2. Have you ever try embedded systems that run on PowerPC (such as:
> > PPC7400 series), and is that system lack of swap memory, how will you
> > find out solutions to deal with ?
>
> Never only "i686" cpu (via C3 core Nehemiah)
> here is the cat /proc/cpuinfo:
>
> [root at tnr-gralinux root]# cat /proc/cpuinfo
> processor : 0
> vendor_id : CentaurHauls
> cpu family : 6
> model : 9
> model name : VIA Nehemiah
> stepping : 8
> cpu MHz : 998.698
> cache size : 64 KB
> fdiv_bug : no
> hlt_bug : no
> f00f_bug : no
> coma_bug : no
> fpu : yes
> fpu_exception : yes
> cpuid level : 1
> wp : yes
> flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr cx8 sep mtrr pge cmov pat mmx
> fxsr sse
> bogomips : 1992.29
>
> It could be down clocked to save energy.
>
>
>
> For the lack of swap memory;
> We don't use swap !
>
> An 512 SDram is cut into 2 ramdisks:
> 256Mb for /tmp and /var
> and
> 256Mb for memory.
> no swap.
>
> The rest of the system is in a CF, in readonly.
>
>
> Regards
>
> js.
>
>
> > Hope to see your reply soon.
> > Best regards,
> > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> >
> > On Jan 15, 2008 12:26 PM, js <jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Quan phongvan wrote:
> > > Dear jean-seb,
> > > If you don't mind, can you help me about these aspects that I
> > have to
> > > consider more about apt as a update-tool.
> > > 1. About protocols are supported by apt-rpm, I care so much
> > about http
> > > and ftp because they both issue security threats: http using
> > plan text
> > > to pass through their passwords for communication and so easily
> for
> > > hacker to do session hijack, in addition ftp passive mode also
> > can be
> > > considered as a security threat too. Can you give me more
> > advices for
> > > that issue?
> >
> > I hope all your code is GPL :)
> > for apt, Panu can answer better than I, but yes apt use http or ftp.
> > If you really want to secure the connexions, you can built a openvpn
> > tunnel; all the transfers will be encrypted.
> >
> > Second part: the security is based on the gpg signature of the rpm
> > package; if a bad guy try to corrupt a rpm: apt will not install
> > it (if
> > you use the
> > lua scrip gp-check.lua)
> >
> > > 2. I have tried puppet as a update tool for my system beside apt
> > > (puppet is a configuration management tool). If you tried
> > puppet, do
> > > you think can I use both apt and puppet as an update solution for
> a
> > > huge rpm embedded Linux network system (apt as a front-end
> > update tool
> > > on client, and puppet-puppetmaster as administration host)?
> > > Hope to see your reply soon,
> > > Best regards,
> > > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> >
> > Could be a good idea; the best way for an network/system admin is
> > always
> > to do the less :)
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On Jan 14, 2008 4:04 PM, js <jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Quan phongvan wrote:
> > > > Dear jean-seb,
> > > > I'm so surprised at receiving your reply so fast, thank
> > you very
> > > much.
> > > I'm at work, so I've time :)
> > >
> > >
> > > > But if you don't mind, may i ask you a favour to help me
> > clear out
> > > > some issues that confused me.
> > > > 1. As you mentioned: "I tested urpmi, apt and yum". While
> > you tested
> > > > both three update tools: urpmi, smart, apt, what were the
> most
> > > > important aspects that had impacts on your judgement for
> > > choosing the
> > > > best update tools candidate (in your case is apt-rpm). And
> > comparing
> > > > to urmpi and yum, what were obstacles that make urpmi and
> yum
> > > did not
> > > > match with your requirements as a update tool?
> > > urpmi: use perl, ocaml, and C ; a good tool but too big and
> > slow.
> > > yum: too buggy , slow and need python to run.
> > >
> > > It was 3 years ago, before yum begin to be the default
> > update tool in
> > > Fedora.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2. As I knew, apt-rpm has LUA as a interpreter embedded
> > language
> > > that
> > > > provide users a lot of powerful option in apt-* command
> line,
> > > because
> > > > I'm just beginner in LUA, can you give more instructions and
> > > advices
> > > > to skilled in LUA as apt-rpm power tool (I easily followed
> the
> > > > intructios that apt-rpm.org <http://apt-rpm.org>
> > <http://apt-rpm.org <http://apt-rpm.org>>
> > > <http://apt-rpm.org <http://apt-rpm.org>> provides but I think
> > > > they not enough for me toseriously use it).
> > >
> > > I'm not a power user of Lua too :)
> > > the main cool stuff is the gpg-check lua script than you can
> > find
> > > everywhere
> > > (it is in this rpm too:
> > >
> >
> http://www.gralinux.org/gralinux/AS3/i686/SRPMS/apt-0.5.15cnc7-5gral.src.rpm
> > <
> http://www.gralinux.org/gralinux/AS3/i686/SRPMS/apt-0.5.15cnc7-5gral.src.rpm
> >
> > > )
> > >
> > >
> > > > 3. Because my progess is under investigeting phrase and
> > I'm still
> > > > transparent from my target machine's configuration, so I'm
> > sorry
> > > that
> > > > I doesn't have more specified specs for you. If you don't
> > mind,
> > > I hope
> > > > to receive your help in near future for that issue.
> > > > Hope to see your reply soon.
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's the main problem:
> > > If your embedded system is a big one (Like the model we use at
> > > air-austral); you don't need to tweak a lot the system;
> > > so after all, you can use yum or whatever you want.
> > >
> > > But if your cpu is slow (<100Mhz) and you have limited ram
> > (4 or 8 Mo)
> > > .. I think you will need a specific distro .. and maybe use
> > debian
> > > instead of Rpm based distro:
> > > so .. apt or nothing :)
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > >
> > > js.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Jan 14, 2008 2:20 PM, js < jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>
> > > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Quan phongvan wrote:
> > > > > Dear Jean-seb,
> > > > > It's so kind of you to answer all of my issues with
> > very
> > > useful
> > > > > informations. I really appreciate it.
> > > > > But I still have some things from your reply, and I
> > hope that
> > > > you can
> > > > > clear them for me, thank you in advance.
> > > > > 1. You mentioned: "No, it use apt only, personally I
> > hate
> > > yum and
> > > > > don't understand why create an other tool for rpm
> based
> > > distro, apt
> > > > > was already here and do the work well; and the best,".
> I
> > > think that
> > > > > while yum has released its stable version so long
> > time ago,
> > > > apt-rpm is
> > > > > still under developing (testing version). In
> > addition, yum
> > > has a
> > > > huge
> > > > > developer resource behind, if we consider update
> > tool from
> > > business
> > > > > point of view, can yum become a update tool candidate?
> > > >
> > > > Linux, the glibc, gcc, KDE are still in development too
> :)
> > > > apt is very very stable and do the job nicely for
> > years (I
> > > use the old
> > > > apt from conectiva, before to update to the Lorg
> version).
> > > > That's not because apt is still in devel than it is not
> > > ready for
> > > > production.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 2. About yum and python, I was already clear, thank
> you
> > > for your
> > > > > model, it's so easy for me to understand the
> > problem. If
> > > you don't
> > > > > mind, have you ever tried smartpm as a update tool
> > on your
> > > embedded
> > > > > system (smartpm similar to yum and apt-rpm, it uses
> > python
> > > also), if
> > > > > yes do you have any advice for me about smartpm?
> > > >
> > > > smartrpm??? I never test it.
> > > > apt was used by conectiva linux for the whole distro,
> but
> > > smartrpm not
> > > > .... and smartrpm was too young 3 years ago.
> > > > Maybe now, you can take time to test it and see if it
> > is the
> > > good
> > > > tool
> > > > for you.
> > > > To me, an important thing was to have one update tool
> for
> > > both Debian
> > > > and Rpms distro; so ... apt was used :)
> > > > yum was ... sorry but, a real crap (I tested urpmi,
> > apt and
> > > yum)
> > > >
> > > > > 3. My target system run on a very tiny Linux clone
> > (mini-ram
> > > > embeeded
> > > > > Linux - RPM system, like VxWorks), it lacks
> development
> > > tool such as
> > > > > gcc and XWindow, so will apt-rpm run well on these
> > systems?.
> > > > I think, yes.
> > > > You have some specs??
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Beside, our update tool connect Internet through
> > firewall for
> > > > security
> > > > > purpose to do system-update, so we must consider some
> > > security
> > > > issues
> > > > > such as: session hijack or disguise of server. Do
> > you have any
> > > > > comments for me with apt-rpm to deal with these
> > problems?
> > > > All the rpms are signed, and don't install if the rpm
> > is not
> > > > signed with
> > > > the right gpg key :)
> > > > This is in the apt-get lua config (see /etc/apt/apt.conf
> :
> > > >
> > > > Scripts
> > > > {
> > > > Init { "gpg-import.lua"; };
> > > > PM
> > > > {
> > > > Pre { "gpg-check.lua"; };
> > > > Post { " upgradevirt.lua "; };
> > > > };
> > > > AptGet
> > > > {
> > > > Upgrade { "upgradevirt.lua "; };
> > > > DistUpgrade {"upgradevirt.lua"; };
> > > > Install::SelectPackage { "upgradevirt.lua"; };
> > > > Install::PreResolve { "upgradevirt.lua"; };
> > > > Install::TranslateArg { " upgradevirt.lua "; };
> > > > };
> > > > Synaptic
> > > > {
> > > > DistUpgrade { "upgradevirt.lua"; };
> > > > }
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So, if a bad guy changes one or more rpms, they will
> > not be
> > > installed,
> > > > and the only way to install them will be to deactivate
> the
> > > > gpg-check.lua
> > > > script
> > > > or use the command rpm -ivh yourRPM.rpm by hand.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > js.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Thank you very much.
> > > > > Hope to see your reply soon.
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jan 13, 2008 12:09 AM, jean-seb <
> > jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>
> > > > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org> <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>>
> > > > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org> <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>
> > > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Quan phongvan a écrit :
> > > > > > Dear Jean-seb,
> > > > > > It's so nice for me to hear that from you. If
> you
> > > don't mind,
> > > > > can you
> > > > > > give me more advices for my issues:
> > > > > > 1. For your mentioned RHEL clone that you used
> > on your
> > > > embedded
> > > > > > system, Does it have yum as RPM packages
> > management
> > > > systems. If yes,
> > > > > > can apt-rpm beats yum as a update tool?
> > > > >
> > > > > it is use in Debian and Rpm based distro, so
> > when you
> > > swith
> > > > into
> > > > > Debian
> > > > > and Rpm distro, no problem: apt-get update,
> apt-get
> > > dist-upgrade
> > > > > ... :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2. As you mentioned "apt is faster than light
> > , and it
> > > > don't need
> > > > > > python; so the memory it use is not a big
> > issue.", I
> > > think
> > > > > apt-rpm has
> > > > > > a big dependency list (especially when I
> compiled
> > > apt-rpm from
> > > > > source
> > > > > > code, it required a lot of packages such as:
> > beecrypt,
> > > > zlib,...).
> > > > > > About python, does it really become the most
> > biggest
> > > obstacle
> > > > > for yum
> > > > > > or even smartpm (an update tool for RPM
> > packages similar
> > > > to yum and
> > > > > > apt-rpm).
> > > > > Yum use python and a lot of sub-modules (how it
> > query
> > > the rpm
> > > > > database?);
> > > > > the main problem I see: you need a
> > pre-interpreter to
> > > run yum:
> > > > > So you can resume it by:
> > > > > kernel -> glibc -> python -> pre-compiling ->
> > yum+ extra
> > > > modules
> > > > >
> > > > > for apt:
> > > > > kernel -> glibc -> libs (stdc++, zlib) -> apt
> > > > >
> > > > > Pre-compiled software runs always faster ( C and
> > C++ are
> > > > faster than
> > > > > Python).
> > > > >
> > > > > If you have time: you can test this 'theory'
> > with gdb and
> > > > see what
> > > > > program (yum or apt) use the most of memory :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > 3. In addition, can you give more details why
> did
> > > you mention
> > > > > about HP
> > > > > > Server ProLiant in: "it is faster that the same
> > > version in
> > > > Proliant
> > > > > > Servers ! (maybe because /var is in ram?)".
> > > > >
> > > > > We use one distro (Gralinux AS 3; a RHEL clone
> with
> > > some tweaks;
> > > > > webmin,
> > > > > openvpn, more iptables modules etc..) on both
> > Embedded
> > > > systems and
> > > > > Servers: the binaries are strictly the same.
> > > > > we have a lot of HP proliant and when i apply
> > updates,
> > > apt
> > > > is far
> > > > > faster
> > > > > on embedded devices than on the big Proliant :) :
> a
> > > > read/write issue i
> > > > > think ;)
> > > > > We all know than hard drive are .. slow :-/ ,
> > specially
> > > > with Raid
> > > > > 5 ...
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hope to receive your advice soon,
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > js.
> > > > >
> > > > > Air-Austral flight Company.
> > > > > http://www.air-austral.com
> > <http://www.air-austral.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Jan 11, 2008 7:13 PM, jean-seb
> > > <jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org> <mailto:
> > jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>
> > > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org> <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>>
> > > > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>>>
> > > > > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>>
> > > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org> <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>
> > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>>>> >
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Quan phongvan a écrit :
> > > > > > > Dear friends,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've studied apt-rpm as a candidate update
> > > tool for RPM
> > > > > packages
> > > > > > > management system, because my target
> device
> > > run on
> > > > > embedded Linux
> > > > > > > (like Vxworks - an RTOS of windriver).
> > > > > > > If you don't mind, I hope that someone has
> > > tried using
> > > > > apt-rpm on an
> > > > > > > embedded system such as VxWorks and can
> > share
> > > me his
> > > > > experiences. I
> > > > > > > really appreciate it.
> > > > > > > Thank you for your attention,
> > > > > > > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Never walk alone
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I use apt in a RHEL clone for embedded
> > systems
> > > (openvpn,
> > > > > firewall and
> > > > > > tons of stuffs like snort etc..):
> > > > > > it runs on a Via C3 533Mhz, 512Mo ram (256
> > for
> > > the system
> > > > > memory, and
> > > > > > 256 for /var and /tmp in read/write mode);
> > > > > > the rest of the system is on a CF 512mo in
> > read only
> > > > (ext3 with
> > > > > > some tweaks)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > apt is faster than light , and it don't
> > need python;
> > > > so the
> > > > > memory it
> > > > > > use is not a big issue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it is faster that the same version in
> > Proliant
> > > Servers
> > > > ! (maybe
> > > > > > because
> > > > > > /var is in ram?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A good choice for a "big" embedded system.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > js
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Air-Austral flight Company.
> > > > > > http://www.air-austral.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
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> > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>>> <mailto:
> > > > > Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>
> > > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>>
> > > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>
> > > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>>>>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> > > <mailto: Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
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> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>> <mailto:
> > > > Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>
> > > <mailto: Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Never walk alone
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> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Apt-Rpm mailing list
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> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>> <mailto:
> > > Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
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> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>
> > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>>
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> > >
> > http://lists.laiskiainen.org/listinfo.cgi/apt-rpm-laiskiainen.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
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> > > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Apt-Rpm mailing list
> > > > Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>
> > > >
> > http://lists.laiskiainen.org/listinfo.cgi/apt-rpm-laiskiainen.org
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> > <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>
> > >
> > http://lists.laiskiainen.org/listinfo.cgi/apt-rpm-laiskiainen.org
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> > <http://lists.laiskiainen.org/listinfo.cgi/apt-rpm-laiskiainen.org>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Never walk alone
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Apt-Rpm mailing list
> > > Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org <mailto:
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> > http://lists.laiskiainen.org/listinfo.cgi/apt-rpm-laiskiainen.org
> > <http://lists.laiskiainen.org/listinfo.cgi/apt-rpm-laiskiainen.org>
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