[Apt-Rpm] Apt-rpm on embedded Linux, is it impossible?
Quan phongvan
phongvan84 at gmail.com
Tue Jan 15 23:01:23 PST 2008
Dear jean-seb,
If you don't mind, I really need your help for my problems:
1. I wonder about how apt-rpm deal with RPM packages dependency list, can
you show me some detailed advice on the way how apt-rpm resolve these
dependencies ?
2. Have you ever try embedded systems that run on PowerPC (such as: PPC7400
series), and is that system lack of swap memory, how will you find out
solutions to deal with ?
Hope to see your reply soon.
Best regards,
Nguyen Anh Quan.
On Jan 15, 2008 12:26 PM, js <jsh at interlug-fr.org> wrote:
> Quan phongvan wrote:
> > Dear jean-seb,
> > If you don't mind, can you help me about these aspects that I have to
> > consider more about apt as a update-tool.
> > 1. About protocols are supported by apt-rpm, I care so much about http
> > and ftp because they both issue security threats: http using plan text
> > to pass through their passwords for communication and so easily for
> > hacker to do session hijack, in addition ftp passive mode also can be
> > considered as a security threat too. Can you give me more advices for
> > that issue?
>
> I hope all your code is GPL :)
> for apt, Panu can answer better than I, but yes apt use http or ftp.
> If you really want to secure the connexions, you can built a openvpn
> tunnel; all the transfers will be encrypted.
>
> Second part: the security is based on the gpg signature of the rpm
> package; if a bad guy try to corrupt a rpm: apt will not install it (if
> you use the
> lua scrip gp-check.lua)
>
> > 2. I have tried puppet as a update tool for my system beside apt
> > (puppet is a configuration management tool). If you tried puppet, do
> > you think can I use both apt and puppet as an update solution for a
> > huge rpm embedded Linux network system (apt as a front-end update tool
> > on client, and puppet-puppetmaster as administration host)?
> > Hope to see your reply soon,
> > Best regards,
> > Nguyen Anh Quan.
>
> Could be a good idea; the best way for an network/system admin is always
> to do the less :)
>
>
>
> >
> > On Jan 14, 2008 4:04 PM, js <jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Quan phongvan wrote:
> > > Dear jean-seb,
> > > I'm so surprised at receiving your reply so fast, thank you very
> > much.
> > I'm at work, so I've time :)
> >
> >
> > > But if you don't mind, may i ask you a favour to help me clear out
> > > some issues that confused me.
> > > 1. As you mentioned: "I tested urpmi, apt and yum". While you
> tested
> > > both three update tools: urpmi, smart, apt, what were the most
> > > important aspects that had impacts on your judgement for
> > choosing the
> > > best update tools candidate (in your case is apt-rpm). And
> comparing
> > > to urmpi and yum, what were obstacles that make urpmi and yum
> > did not
> > > match with your requirements as a update tool?
> > urpmi: use perl, ocaml, and C ; a good tool but too big and slow.
> > yum: too buggy , slow and need python to run.
> >
> > It was 3 years ago, before yum begin to be the default update tool
> in
> > Fedora.
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2. As I knew, apt-rpm has LUA as a interpreter embedded language
> > that
> > > provide users a lot of powerful option in apt-* command line,
> > because
> > > I'm just beginner in LUA, can you give more instructions and
> > advices
> > > to skilled in LUA as apt-rpm power tool (I easily followed the
> > > intructios that apt-rpm.org <http://apt-rpm.org>
> > <http://apt-rpm.org <http://apt-rpm.org>> provides but I think
> > > they not enough for me toseriously use it).
> >
> > I'm not a power user of Lua too :)
> > the main cool stuff is the gpg-check lua script than you can find
> > everywhere
> > (it is in this rpm too:
> >
> http://www.gralinux.org/gralinux/AS3/i686/SRPMS/apt-0.5.15cnc7-5gral.src.rpm
> > )
> >
> >
> > > 3. Because my progess is under investigeting phrase and I'm still
> > > transparent from my target machine's configuration, so I'm sorry
> > that
> > > I doesn't have more specified specs for you. If you don't mind,
> > I hope
> > > to receive your help in near future for that issue.
> > > Hope to see your reply soon.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> > >
> >
> > That's the main problem:
> > If your embedded system is a big one (Like the model we use at
> > air-austral); you don't need to tweak a lot the system;
> > so after all, you can use yum or whatever you want.
> >
> > But if your cpu is slow (<100Mhz) and you have limited ram (4 or 8
> Mo)
> > .. I think you will need a specific distro .. and maybe use debian
> > instead of Rpm based distro:
> > so .. apt or nothing :)
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> > js.
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 14, 2008 2:20 PM, js <jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Quan phongvan wrote:
> > > > Dear Jean-seb,
> > > > It's so kind of you to answer all of my issues with very
> > useful
> > > > informations. I really appreciate it.
> > > > But I still have some things from your reply, and I hope
> that
> > > you can
> > > > clear them for me, thank you in advance.
> > > > 1. You mentioned: "No, it use apt only, personally I hate
> > yum and
> > > > don't understand why create an other tool for rpm based
> > distro, apt
> > > > was already here and do the work well; and the best,". I
> > think that
> > > > while yum has released its stable version so long time ago,
> > > apt-rpm is
> > > > still under developing (testing version). In addition, yum
> > has a
> > > huge
> > > > developer resource behind, if we consider update tool from
> > business
> > > > point of view, can yum become a update tool candidate?
> > >
> > > Linux, the glibc, gcc, KDE are still in development too :)
> > > apt is very very stable and do the job nicely for years (I
> > use the old
> > > apt from conectiva, before to update to the Lorg version).
> > > That's not because apt is still in devel than it is not
> > ready for
> > > production.
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2. About yum and python, I was already clear, thank you
> > for your
> > > > model, it's so easy for me to understand the problem. If
> > you don't
> > > > mind, have you ever tried smartpm as a update tool on your
> > embedded
> > > > system (smartpm similar to yum and apt-rpm, it uses python
> > also), if
> > > > yes do you have any advice for me about smartpm?
> > >
> > > smartrpm??? I never test it.
> > > apt was used by conectiva linux for the whole distro, but
> > smartrpm not
> > > .... and smartrpm was too young 3 years ago.
> > > Maybe now, you can take time to test it and see if it is the
> > good
> > > tool
> > > for you.
> > > To me, an important thing was to have one update tool for
> > both Debian
> > > and Rpms distro; so ... apt was used :)
> > > yum was ... sorry but, a real crap (I tested urpmi, apt and
> > yum)
> > >
> > > > 3. My target system run on a very tiny Linux clone (mini-ram
> > > embeeded
> > > > Linux - RPM system, like VxWorks), it lacks development
> > tool such as
> > > > gcc and XWindow, so will apt-rpm run well on these systems?.
> > > I think, yes.
> > > You have some specs??
> > >
> > >
> > > > Beside, our update tool connect Internet through firewall
> for
> > > security
> > > > purpose to do system-update, so we must consider some
> > security
> > > issues
> > > > such as: session hijack or disguise of server. Do you have
> any
> > > > comments for me with apt-rpm to deal with these problems?
> > > All the rpms are signed, and don't install if the rpm is not
> > > signed with
> > > the right gpg key :)
> > > This is in the apt-get lua config (see /etc/apt/apt.conf :
> > >
> > > Scripts
> > > {
> > > Init { "gpg-import.lua"; };
> > > PM
> > > {
> > > Pre { "gpg-check.lua"; };
> > > Post { " upgradevirt.lua"; };
> > > };
> > > AptGet
> > > {
> > > Upgrade { "upgradevirt.lua "; };
> > > DistUpgrade {"upgradevirt.lua"; };
> > > Install::SelectPackage { "upgradevirt.lua"; };
> > > Install::PreResolve { "upgradevirt.lua"; };
> > > Install::TranslateArg { " upgradevirt.lua"; };
> > > };
> > > Synaptic
> > > {
> > > DistUpgrade { "upgradevirt.lua"; };
> > > }
> > > }
> > >
> > >
> > > So, if a bad guy changes one or more rpms, they will not be
> > installed,
> > > and the only way to install them will be to deactivate the
> > > gpg-check.lua
> > > script
> > > or use the command rpm -ivh yourRPM.rpm by hand.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > js.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Thank you very much.
> > > > Hope to see your reply soon.
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 13, 2008 12:09 AM, jean-seb < jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>
> > > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Quan phongvan a écrit :
> > > > > Dear Jean-seb,
> > > > > It's so nice for me to hear that from you. If you
> > don't mind,
> > > > can you
> > > > > give me more advices for my issues:
> > > > > 1. For your mentioned RHEL clone that you used on your
> > > embedded
> > > > > system, Does it have yum as RPM packages management
> > > systems. If yes,
> > > > > can apt-rpm beats yum as a update tool?
> > > >
> > > > it is use in Debian and Rpm based distro, so when you
> > swith
> > > into
> > > > Debian
> > > > and Rpm distro, no problem: apt-get update, apt-get
> > dist-upgrade
> > > > ... :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 2. As you mentioned "apt is faster than light , and it
> > > don't need
> > > > > python; so the memory it use is not a big issue.", I
> > think
> > > > apt-rpm has
> > > > > a big dependency list (especially when I compiled
> > apt-rpm from
> > > > source
> > > > > code, it required a lot of packages such as: beecrypt,
> > > zlib,...).
> > > > > About python, does it really become the most biggest
> > obstacle
> > > > for yum
> > > > > or even smartpm (an update tool for RPM packages
> similar
> > > to yum and
> > > > > apt-rpm).
> > > > Yum use python and a lot of sub-modules (how it query
> > the rpm
> > > > database?);
> > > > the main problem I see: you need a pre-interpreter to
> > run yum:
> > > > So you can resume it by:
> > > > kernel -> glibc -> python -> pre-compiling -> yum+ extra
> > > modules
> > > >
> > > > for apt:
> > > > kernel -> glibc -> libs (stdc++, zlib) -> apt
> > > >
> > > > Pre-compiled software runs always faster ( C and C++ are
> > > faster than
> > > > Python).
> > > >
> > > > If you have time: you can test this 'theory' with gdb
> and
> > > see what
> > > > program (yum or apt) use the most of memory :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 3. In addition, can you give more details why did
> > you mention
> > > > about HP
> > > > > Server ProLiant in: "it is faster that the same
> > version in
> > > Proliant
> > > > > Servers ! (maybe because /var is in ram?)".
> > > >
> > > > We use one distro (Gralinux AS 3; a RHEL clone with
> > some tweaks;
> > > > webmin,
> > > > openvpn, more iptables modules etc..) on both Embedded
> > > systems and
> > > > Servers: the binaries are strictly the same.
> > > > we have a lot of HP proliant and when i apply updates,
> > apt
> > > is far
> > > > faster
> > > > on embedded devices than on the big Proliant :) : a
> > > read/write issue i
> > > > think ;)
> > > > We all know than hard drive are .. slow :-/ , specially
> > > with Raid
> > > > 5 ...
> > > >
> > > > > Hope to receive your advice soon,
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > js.
> > > >
> > > > Air-Austral flight Company.
> > > > http://www.air-austral.com <http://www.air-austral.com>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jan 11, 2008 7:13 PM, jean-seb
> > <jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>
> > > > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org> <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>>
> > > > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org> <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>
> > > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>>> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Quan phongvan a écrit :
> > > > > > Dear friends,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've studied apt-rpm as a candidate update
> > tool for RPM
> > > > packages
> > > > > > management system, because my target device
> > run on
> > > > embedded Linux
> > > > > > (like Vxworks - an RTOS of windriver).
> > > > > > If you don't mind, I hope that someone has
> > tried using
> > > > apt-rpm on an
> > > > > > embedded system such as VxWorks and can share
> > me his
> > > > experiences. I
> > > > > > really appreciate it.
> > > > > > Thank you for your attention,
> > > > > > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Never walk alone
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I use apt in a RHEL clone for embedded systems
> > (openvpn,
> > > > firewall and
> > > > > tons of stuffs like snort etc..):
> > > > > it runs on a Via C3 533Mhz, 512Mo ram (256 for
> > the system
> > > > memory, and
> > > > > 256 for /var and /tmp in read/write mode);
> > > > > the rest of the system is on a CF 512mo in read
> only
> > > (ext3 with
> > > > > some tweaks)
> > > > >
> > > > > apt is faster than light , and it don't need
> python;
> > > so the
> > > > memory it
> > > > > use is not a big issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > it is faster that the same version in Proliant
> > Servers
> > > ! (maybe
> > > > > because
> > > > > /var is in ram?)
> > > > >
> > > > > A good choice for a "big" embedded system.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards.
> > > > >
> > > > > js
> > > > >
> > > > > Air-Austral flight Company.
> > > > > http://www.air-austral.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Never walk alone
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Never walk alone
> > > >
> > >
> >
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