[Apt-Rpm] Apt-rpm on embedded Linux, is it impossible?

Quan phongvan phongvan84 at gmail.com
Mon Jan 14 08:43:30 PST 2008


Dear jean-seb,
If you don't mind, can you help me about these aspects that I have to
consider more about apt as a update-tool.
1. About protocols are supported by apt-rpm, I care so much about http and
ftp because they both issue security threats: http using plan text to pass
through their passwords for communication and so easily for hacker to do
session hijack, in addition ftp passive mode also can be considered as a
security threat too. Can you give me more advices for that issue?
2. I have tried puppet as a update tool for my system beside apt (puppet is
a configuration management tool). If you tried puppet, do you think can I
use both apt and puppet as an update solution for a huge rpm embedded Linux
network system (apt as a front-end update tool on client, and
puppet-puppetmaster as administration host)?
Hope to see your reply soon,
Best regards,
Nguyen Anh Quan.

On Jan 14, 2008 4:04 PM, js <jsh at interlug-fr.org> wrote:

> Quan phongvan wrote:
> > Dear jean-seb,
> > I'm so surprised at receiving your reply so fast, thank you very much.
> I'm at work, so I've time :)
>
>
> > But if you don't mind, may i ask you a favour to help me clear out
> > some issues that confused me.
> > 1. As you mentioned: "I tested urpmi, apt and yum". While you tested
> > both three update tools: urpmi, smart, apt, what were the most
> > important aspects that had impacts on your judgement for choosing the
> > best update tools candidate (in your case is apt-rpm). And comparing
> > to urmpi and yum, what were obstacles that make urpmi and yum did not
> > match with your requirements as a update tool?
> urpmi: use perl, ocaml, and C  ; a good tool but too big and slow.
> yum: too buggy , slow and need python to run.
>
> It was 3 years ago, before yum begin to be the default update tool in
> Fedora.
>
>
>
> > 2. As I knew, apt-rpm has LUA as a interpreter embedded language that
> > provide users a lot of powerful option in apt-* command line, because
> > I'm just beginner in LUA, can you give more instructions and advices
> > to skilled in LUA as apt-rpm power tool (I easily followed the
> > intructios that apt-rpm.org <http://apt-rpm.org> provides but I think
> > they not enough for me toseriously use it).
>
> I'm not a power user of Lua too :)
> the main cool stuff is the gpg-check lua script than you can find
> everywhere
> (it is in this rpm too:
>
> http://www.gralinux.org/gralinux/AS3/i686/SRPMS/apt-0.5.15cnc7-5gral.src.rpm
> )
>
>
> > 3. Because my progess is under investigeting phrase and I'm still
> > transparent from my target machine's configuration, so I'm sorry that
> > I doesn't have more specified specs for you. If you don't mind, I hope
> > to receive your help in near future for that issue.
> > Hope to see your reply soon.
> > Best regards,
> > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> >
>
> That's the main problem:
> If your embedded system is a big one (Like the model we use at
> air-austral); you don't need to tweak a lot the system;
> so after all, you can use yum or whatever you want.
>
> But if your cpu is slow (<100Mhz) and you have limited ram (4 or 8 Mo)
> .. I think you will need a specific distro .. and maybe use debian
> instead of Rpm based distro:
> so .. apt or nothing :)
>
> Regards
>
>
> js.
>
>
>
> > On Jan 14, 2008 2:20 PM, js <jsh at interlug-fr.org
> > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>> wrote:
> >
> >     Quan phongvan wrote:
> >     > Dear Jean-seb,
> >     > It's so kind of you to answer all of my issues with very useful
> >     > informations. I really appreciate it.
> >     > But I still have some things from your reply, and I hope that
> >     you can
> >     > clear them for me, thank you in advance.
> >     > 1. You mentioned: "No, it use apt only, personally I hate yum and
> >     > don't understand why create an other tool for rpm based distro,
> apt
> >     > was already here and do the work well; and the best,". I think
> that
> >     > while yum has released its stable version so long time ago,
> >     apt-rpm is
> >     > still under developing (testing version). In addition, yum has a
> >     huge
> >     > developer resource behind, if we consider update tool from
> business
> >     > point of view, can yum become a update tool candidate?
> >
> >     Linux, the glibc, gcc, KDE are still in development too :)
> >     apt is very very stable and do the job nicely for years (I use the
> old
> >     apt from conectiva, before to update to the Lorg version).
> >     That's not because apt is still in devel than it is not ready for
> >     production.
> >
> >
> >     > 2. About yum and python, I was already clear, thank you for your
> >     > model, it's so easy for me to understand the problem. If you don't
> >     > mind, have you ever tried smartpm as a update tool on your
> embedded
> >     > system (smartpm similar to yum and apt-rpm, it uses python also),
> if
> >     > yes do you have any advice for me about smartpm?
> >
> >     smartrpm??? I never test it.
> >     apt was used by conectiva linux for the whole distro, but smartrpm
> not
> >     .... and smartrpm was too young 3 years ago.
> >     Maybe now, you can take time to test it and see if it is the good
> >     tool
> >     for you.
> >     To me, an important thing was to have one update tool for both
> Debian
> >     and Rpms distro; so ... apt was used :)
> >     yum was ... sorry but, a real crap (I tested urpmi, apt and yum)
> >
> >     > 3. My target system run on a very tiny Linux clone (mini-ram
> >     embeeded
> >     > Linux - RPM system, like VxWorks), it lacks development tool such
> as
> >     > gcc and XWindow, so will apt-rpm run well on these systems?.
> >     I think, yes.
> >     You have some specs??
> >
> >
> >     > Beside, our update tool connect Internet through firewall for
> >     security
> >     > purpose to do system-update, so we must consider some security
> >     issues
> >     > such as: session hijack or disguise of server. Do you have any
> >     > comments for me with apt-rpm to deal with these problems?
> >     All the rpms are signed, and don't install if the rpm is not
> >     signed with
> >     the right gpg key :)
> >     This is in the apt-get lua config (see /etc/apt/apt.conf :
> >
> >     Scripts
> >     {
> >      Init { "gpg-import.lua"; };
> >      PM
> >      {
> >        Pre { "gpg-check.lua"; };
> >        Post { " upgradevirt.lua"; };
> >      };
> >      AptGet
> >      {
> >        Upgrade { "upgradevirt.lua"; };
> >        DistUpgrade {"upgradevirt.lua"; };
> >        Install::SelectPackage { "upgradevirt.lua"; };
> >        Install::PreResolve { "upgradevirt.lua"; };
> >        Install::TranslateArg { "upgradevirt.lua"; };
> >      };
> >      Synaptic
> >      {
> >        DistUpgrade { "upgradevirt.lua"; };
> >      }
> >     }
> >
> >
> >     So, if a bad guy changes one or more rpms, they will not be
> installed,
> >     and the only way to install them will be to deactivate the
> >     gpg-check.lua
> >     script
> >     or use the command rpm -ivh yourRPM.rpm by hand.
> >
> >     Regards
> >
> >     js.
> >
> >
> >
> >     > Thank you very much.
> >     > Hope to see your reply soon.
> >     > Best regards,
> >     > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > On Jan 13, 2008 12:09 AM, jean-seb < jsh at interlug-fr.org
> >     <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> >     > <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>> wrote:
> >     >
> >     >     Quan phongvan a écrit :
> >     >     > Dear Jean-seb,
> >     >     > It's so nice for me to hear that from you. If you don't
> mind,
> >     >     can you
> >     >     > give me more advices for my issues:
> >     >     > 1. For your mentioned RHEL clone that you used on your
> >     embedded
> >     >     > system, Does it have yum as RPM packages management
> >     systems. If yes,
> >     >     > can apt-rpm beats yum as a update tool?
> >     >
> >     >     it is use in Debian and Rpm based distro, so when you swith
> >     into
> >     >     Debian
> >     >     and Rpm distro, no problem: apt-get update, apt-get
> dist-upgrade
> >     >     ... :)
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     > 2. As you mentioned "apt is faster than light , and it
> >     don't need
> >     >     > python; so the memory it use is not a big issue.", I think
> >     >     apt-rpm has
> >     >     > a big dependency list (especially when I compiled apt-rpm
> from
> >     >     source
> >     >     > code, it required a lot of packages such as: beecrypt,
> >     zlib,...).
> >     >     > About python, does it really become the most biggest
> obstacle
> >     >     for yum
> >     >     > or even smartpm (an update tool for RPM packages similar
> >     to yum and
> >     >     > apt-rpm).
> >     >     Yum use python and a lot of sub-modules (how it query the rpm
> >     >     database?);
> >     >     the main problem I see: you need a pre-interpreter to run yum:
> >     >     So you can resume it by:
> >     >     kernel -> glibc -> python -> pre-compiling -> yum+ extra
> >     modules
> >     >
> >     >     for apt:
> >     >     kernel -> glibc -> libs (stdc++, zlib) -> apt
> >     >
> >     >     Pre-compiled software runs always faster ( C and C++ are
> >     faster than
> >     >     Python).
> >     >
> >     >     If you have time: you can test this 'theory' with gdb and
> >     see what
> >     >     program (yum or apt) use the most of memory :)
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     > 3. In addition, can you give more details why did you
> mention
> >     >     about HP
> >     >     > Server ProLiant in: "it is faster that the same version in
> >     Proliant
> >     >     > Servers ! (maybe because /var is in ram?)".
> >     >
> >     >     We use one distro (Gralinux AS 3; a RHEL clone with some
> tweaks;
> >     >     webmin,
> >     >     openvpn, more iptables modules etc..) on both Embedded
> >     systems and
> >     >     Servers: the binaries are strictly the same.
> >     >     we have a lot of HP proliant and when i apply updates, apt
> >     is far
> >     >     faster
> >     >     on embedded devices than on the big Proliant :) : a
> >     read/write issue i
> >     >     think ;)
> >     >     We all know than hard drive are ..  slow :-/ , specially
> >     with Raid
> >     >     5 ...
> >     >
> >     >     > Hope to receive your advice soon,
> >     >     > Best regards,
> >     >     > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> >     >
> >     >     Regards
> >     >
> >     >     js.
> >     >
> >     >     Air-Austral flight Company.
> >     >     http://www.air-austral.com
> >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     > On Jan 11, 2008 7:13 PM, jean-seb <jsh at interlug-fr.org
> >     <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> >     >     <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>
> >     >     > <mailto: jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>
> >     <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org <mailto:jsh at interlug-fr.org>>> > wrote:
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Quan phongvan a écrit :
> >     >     >     > Dear friends,
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > I've studied apt-rpm as a candidate update tool for
> RPM
> >     >     packages
> >     >     >     > management system, because my target device run on
> >     >     embedded Linux
> >     >     >     > (like Vxworks - an RTOS of windriver).
> >     >     >     > If you don't mind, I hope that someone has tried using
> >     >     apt-rpm on an
> >     >     >     > embedded system such as VxWorks and can share me his
> >     >     experiences. I
> >     >     >     > really appreciate it.
> >     >     >     > Thank you for your attention,
> >     >     >     > Nguyen Anh Quan.
> >     >     >     > --
> >     >     >     > Never walk alone
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     I use apt in a RHEL clone for embedded systems (openvpn,
> >     >     firewall and
> >     >     >     tons of stuffs like snort etc..):
> >     >     >     it runs on a Via C3 533Mhz, 512Mo ram (256 for the
> system
> >     >     memory, and
> >     >     >     256 for /var and /tmp in read/write mode);
> >     >     >     the rest of the system is on a CF 512mo in read only
> >     (ext3 with
> >     >     >     some tweaks)
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     apt is faster than light , and it don't need python;
> >     so the
> >     >     memory it
> >     >     >     use is not a big issue.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     it is faster that the same version in Proliant Servers
> >     ! (maybe
> >     >     >     because
> >     >     >     /var is in ram?)
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     A good choice for a "big" embedded system.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Regards.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     js
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Air-Austral flight Company.
> >     >     >     http://www.air-austral.com
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     _______________________________________________
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> >     <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>> <mailto:
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> >     <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>
> >     <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org
> >     <mailto:Apt-Rpm at lists.laiskiainen.org>>>
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     http://lists.laiskiainen.org/listinfo.cgi/apt-rpm-laiskiainen.org
> >     >     <
> >     http://lists.laiskiainen.org/listinfo.cgi/apt-rpm-laiskiainen.org>
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     > --
> >     >     > Never walk alone
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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> >
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